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PHOENIX -- Siding with gun owner over cops, the Senate Judiciary Committee agreed Friday to let people carry concealed weapons without first getting a state permit.

The 4-3 vote came despite the comments from several police officers who said that letting anyone age 18 have a hidden gun will make their jobs more dangerous. Friday's vote sends the measure to the full Senate.

Phoenix Police Lt. Jennifer LaRoque related to lawmakers how, if she had "reasonable suspicion'' to stop a vehicle she pulls it over and finds there are several "known gang members.'' She would tell them to get out and, if she has legal reason, pats them down to look for weapons.

"Right away, if I find a weapon, I can arrest them'' on a charge of misconduct involving weapons, "and they go to jail,'' LaRoque said. But if this law is approved, the lieutenant said if she finds no outstanding warrants or probable cause to make an arrest, "after I'm done with the stop I go back and I have to now deliver the weapon back to this person.''

But Sen. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, chided police for coming to the Capitol now to say that the safest thing is to allow only those with background checks, training and proficiency testing to have a gun that isn't visible.

He said police opposed the 1994 law that created the first exception to laws that, until then, required anyone who wanted to be armed to have the weapon visible. Pearce said they insisted at the time that it would result in danger to police officers and the community as a whole -- the same fears they are raising now.

"The exact opposite has proven to be true,'' he said. And Pearce said he has no reason to believe their fears that letting anyone have a concealed weapon will cause problems.

Pearce had the same criticism for Attorney General Terry Goddard who also testified against the legislation. In 1994 Goddard, as a candidate for governor, said he would have vetoed the bill that permitted concealed weapons.

SB 1270 is being pushed by Sen. Sylvia Allen, R-Snowflake, said 35 years of restrictions on gun ownership has not made people safer.

"And yet statistics make it very clear that in pro-gun communities and pro-gun states like Alaska and Vermont, that they are safer in the violent crime areas,'' Allen said. Both states allow anyone to carry a concealed weapon.

But Sen. Ken Cheuvront, D-Phoenix, said Alaska has the second highest rate of firearms violence in the country.

Conversely, he said that Massachusetts, about the same size as Arizona but with much stricter gun laws, had only a third the number of homicides as here.

Allen said all the laws do are impose restrictions on those who obey them.

"If a person is going to commit a violent crime against anyone, whether it's coming into this building to shoot one of us, a cop on the street, the gun isn't the problem,'' she said. "It's the people.''

"We have laws against bad guys,'' he said. "Let's give the good guys the right to do what I think our founders decided a long time ago when they recognized our God-given rights to bear arms.''

Some of the debate went beyond the question of whether anyone should be able to carry a concealed weapon.

Allen's legislation would leave in place the existing laws that allow those who want to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. And it would give those people the right to take their guns into places where weapons are not now allowed.

Cheuvront said that includes "public events'' such as street fairs and block parties where city permits are required -- and where alcohol often is served.

"If crime are not happening now at those events, why would crime change if those same people are going to those same events and they happen to have a gun in their pocket?'' she asked. And Allen said she has never heard of any situation where anyone who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon has ever committed a crime while carrying that gun.